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DejaVu
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« on: March 11, 2010, 07:13:13 pm » |
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Like the other 95% of Americans....I believe in a divine intelligence that I personally refer to as God and I am certainly not offended by references to God. As a matter of fact, I don't have a problem with students reciting a simple prayer in our schools. Most people don't...at least I don't think they do anyway. But this small minatory of people and organizations believe their rights should over power the rest of us. They managed to get prayer in school declared unconstitutional...and why? Because they objected to this prayer... Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our country. Amen. I'm curious....does anyone here find this prayer offensive? And now this guy Michael Newdow has been trying to get God stripped from practically everything! Court upholds 'under God' in Pledge of Allegiancehttp://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100311/ap_on_re_us/us_god_and_governmentWell he (and his well connected backers) might have lost this time...but they'll just keep trying until they get it done. Thanks....I needed to vent. |
The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity, but the one that removes awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside. --Allan Bloom
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techguy
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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2010, 09:25:18 am » |
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I don't find it offensive. I find all sanctioned school prayer disturbing. The organized practice of religion does not belong in public school. Period. If one day this country is majority Muslim and your great-grandchildren are fighting over praising Allah every morning before school, perhaps you'd feel differently. |
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Winston
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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2010, 11:40:42 am » |
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The organized practice of religion does not belong in public school. Period. Amen. The main duty of a public school is to teach "HOW" to think, not "WHAT" to think. So the old joke ... "thank God for atheists"... They make (some of) us think (somewhat). Yet faith is not a matter of INTELLECT; it's simple unthinking trust in a "higher sacred authority." Some have it; some don't; some are literally "lost" without it. (By the way, technically, and most ironically, Christians, Muslims and Jews all worship the "same God," only with vastly different names and concepts. All the more pitiful and irrational then, all the suffering due to vicious hate and war about it.) I actually believe as you, DejaVu, but I also understand where atheists come from -- and where they go astray, especially if confrontational, litigious or even "crusading." Same troubled wayward path as for any sort of religious fanatics. Mr. Newdow's a doctor AND a LAWYER? (Why am I not surprised?) Yes, too many such lawsuits. Did you know that the original "biggie" was much closer to home? Prior to the 1962 Engel v. Vitale case involving that "offensive" (no, not to me either) prayer you mentioned, the mother of a future 3-term Champaign mayor, won her similar 3-year legal battle against religion in schools -- but not without great threat and harassment (some "righteous believers" even killed the son's kitten -- how's THAT for showing "godliness" or intellect?!  ): The entire process of removing official religious exercises from public schools started much earlier with the McCollum v. Board of Education case decided on March 8, 1948. At that time, the Supreme Court held that public schools in Champaign, Illinois, violated the separation of church and state by allowing religious groups to teach religious classes to students in the schools during the school day.
http://atheism.about.com/od/churchstatemyths/a/ohairprayer.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vashti_McCollumNonetheless, I'm glad if the references to God, even if "strictly un-Constitutional" or clearly biased, can remain, and hope that any sort of recognition of a power greater than oneself can prevail. Not a "belief" there, just Reality. Thus endeth today's sermon. |
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DejaVu
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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2010, 12:06:15 pm » |
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I don't find it offensive. I find all sanctioned school prayer disturbing. Disturbing in what way? It is because you are atheist or agnostic? If you are, then yes, I understand your reasoning and you probably also want God stricken from the Pledge of Allegiance. The organized practice of religion does not belong in public school. Period. I agree with you on point, but this is not about about organized religion being practiced in school. This is about a simple blessing that schools once said along with the Pledge of Allegiance in mornings. It was just part of our American culture until a minority with opposing beliefs got it banned. If one day this country is majority Muslim and your great-grandchildren are fighting over praising Allah every morning before school, perhaps you'd feel differently.
You would be wrong and you are insinuating something about Muslims that isn't true. Allah translates to God in English. Muslims believe there is only one God for all people. |
The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity, but the one that removes awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside. --Allan Bloom
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DejaVu
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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2010, 12:36:18 pm » |
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I guess for me this isn't so much about religion as it is a stab in the heart of American culture and the constant chipping away of it. Polls say up to 95% of Americans believe in God so who is it hurting?
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The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity, but the one that removes awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside. --Allan Bloom
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techguy
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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2010, 01:26:28 pm » |
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I guess for me this isn't so much about religion as it is a stab in the heart of American culture and the constant chipping away of it. Polls say up to 95% of Americans believe in God so who is it hurting?
The 5%. I say that somewhat flippantly, but Democracy has always been about protecting the minority. |
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DejaVu
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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2010, 01:48:20 pm » |
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I guess for me this isn't so much about religion as it is a stab in the heart of American culture and the constant chipping away of it. Polls say up to 95% of Americans believe in God so who is it hurting?
The 5%. I say that somewhat flippantly, but Democracy has always been about protecting the minority. Well no offense, but I guess it's easy to be flippant when you are either ignorant or misinformed because the very nature of Democracy is governed by the principle of majority rule. Geesh  |
The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity, but the one that removes awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside. --Allan Bloom
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TEN
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« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2010, 11:23:29 am » |
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THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN ATHEIST.WHAT EVER YOU TURN TO IN YOUR HOUR OF NEED AND IF YOU SAY THAT YOU DON'T HAVE A HOUR OF NEED THEN YOU ARE LIEING.SO WHAT EVER YOU TURN TO THAT IS YOUR GOD.IF YOU NEED A DRINK OR SOME DOPE TO GET THROUGHT THE DAY THEN THATS YOUR GOD.HOPE I DON'T STEP ON ANYONES TOES ON THIS ONE.JUST THINK ABOUT IT.LATER TEN   |
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techguy
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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2010, 12:28:23 pm » |
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I guess for me this isn't so much about religion as it is a stab in the heart of American culture and the constant chipping away of it. Polls say up to 95% of Americans believe in God so who is it hurting?
The 5%. I say that somewhat flippantly, but Democracy has always been about protecting the minority. Well no offense, but I guess it's easy to be flippant when you are either ignorant or misinformed because the very nature of Democracy is governed by the principle of majority rule. Geesh Really? I mean, c'mon. Really? Did I say Democracy was not majority rule? Give me a break. I am neither ignorant nor misinformed. Here, read this: http://www.america.gov/st/democracy-english/2008/May/20080609194934eaifas0.5346796.htmlAnd, to be completely accurate, we don't live in a true Democracy. We have a Representative Republic. |
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DejaVu
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« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2010, 02:12:51 pm » |
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I guess for me this isn't so much about religion as it is a stab in the heart of American culture and the constant chipping away of it. Polls say up to 95% of Americans believe in God so who is it hurting?
The 5%. I say that somewhat flippantly, but Democracy has always been about protecting the minority. Well no offense, but I guess it's easy to be flippant when you are either ignorant or misinformed because the very nature of Democracy is governed by the principle of majority rule. Geesh Really? I mean, c'mon. Really? Did I say Democracy was not majority rule? Give me a break. I am neither ignorant nor misinformed. Here, read this: http://www.america.gov/st/democracy-english/2008/May/20080609194934eaifas0.5346796.htmlAnd, to be completely accurate, we don't live in a true Democracy. We have a Representative Republic. You made a statement about "democracy" that was inaccurate. You can't make it right by trying to change the context and emphasis of what you said. Nice try tho.  And if you believe the people we elect are actually representing 'we the people"...then I've got some ocean front property in Arizona I can sell you real cheap. Seriously techguy...bottom line is, we disagree about the topic and I respect your right to disagree. We all don't see the world in the same way and I think it makes life more interesting that way. |
The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity, but the one that removes awareness of other possibilities, that makes it seem inconceivable that other ways are viable, that removes the sense that there is an outside. --Allan Bloom
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techguy
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« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2010, 04:46:21 pm » |
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We're not disagreeing, we're just making different points.
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